[Podcast] Generating Customer Awareness With OKRs

In this podcast episode you'll learn about generating customer awareness with OKRs, and how it can impact the top of your funnel.

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Podcast Transcript

Podcast Transcript

Stephen N. 

What are we talking about?

KJ 

What are we talking about? Jinx.

Stephen N. 

Let's talk about our feelings, man.

KJ 

It's just your opinion, man. Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's talk about the customer lifecycle.

Stephen N. 

Yeah. Well, who are you talking to? Who's this podcast for?

KJ 

For OKR Operators.

Stephen N. 

Operators. So, acquisition? Obviously, that's revenue. That's money.

KJ 

Yeah. And just to clarify, an OKR operator is an individual who's responsible for the entire OKR implementation. So oftentimes, they're appointed by the CEO, or maybe they are the CEO. But they're high-level advocates who believe in OKR. And they combat any skepticism and misunderstandings about the methodology. So, they're important to the whole process or the book, the bus stops with the OKR. Operator. What stage do we want to look at first?

Stephen N. 

Well, we haven't really honed in on any of the stages really, yet. But we just want to start at the very top of funnel customer awareness.

KJ 

Yeah, we can do that. I feel like we need to choose one and then describe what the customer stage is just to have a context for everyone. Yeah. So today is about awareness. Well, this is great topic to pick because I don't know anything about customer awareness.

Stephen N. 

Got it. The way I define customer awareness is individuals or target prospective customers, who do not know who you are or what you do, or anything about your products and services, and getting them to be aware of what you do. It's a binary thing. I did not know about Krezzo. Yesterday, somebody said something to me, or I saw something or read something and now I know who they are. That's it.

KJ 

Okay, so but under that premise, you said, a target customer. So, you're saying that customer awareness before you can engage with it in the act of making people aware, you must define the target customer.

Stephen N. 

Right. So, the analogy I always like to make is if you think about like a department store, right, JC Penney's, or Belk or whatever department store, every individual that walks into that store is the customer, whether they buy something or not, they're a customer. If you're in the jewelry section, and you're selling, you know, $100,000 Rolex watches, the guy that walks by the jewelry stand in the Watch stand that has 50 cents in his pocket, that is not a target customer. Right? The guy, the executive hotshot that walks in with the power suit, that's your target customer. So, you'll treat both with respect, hopefully, ideally, but in terms of who's going to give you a transaction, your target customer is where you'd like to focus the bulk of your energy.

Stephen N. 

It's also why from a marketing standpoint, there's so many vanity metrics out there. People that say, well, oh, yeah, well, we need to get 100,000 views on this site or drive 100,000 visitors to our web properties. That's easy. But doing 100,000 views of a target customer to those properties much more difficult. Okay, but much more beneficial, if you can do it.

KJ 

Well, yeah, that always gets into our it's almost our regular team and these podcasts, quality and quantity. Let's go back to just you define people walking into the department stores customer. So could I determine from that everyone is a customer.

Stephen N. 

It's uncommon, but I think it's a great way to approach a business that whether you're buying something or not, you want them to have a good experience. You just don't want to suck up to the people that are on the cusp of giving you money. You want to have a good site, a website that that educates informs and you know, whether you're picking up the phone for support or picking up to ask a question, you want to be able to provide a good experience to everybody, everybody's, everybody's a customer, in my mind, just whether you're paying us or not. That's really the only difference.

KJ 

So, at that stage in the customer lifecycle, the first stage of awareness, you kind of take the premise that distinguishing customers from non-customers is difficult. So, I'm going to treat everyone as a customer, make sure my initial portrayal of my business is consistent, and of high quality. Therefore, everyone knows that we're a great organization. And we're going to target specific people, but I like it. Because when you don't know who someone else knows, you know, like, maybe the customer that comes to your website is just a plumber or something. And he isn't your target market for a SaaS product. But maybe his brother is the head of a SaaS company, and he refers you so that’s probably why you should take that approach.

Stephen N. 

I mean, yeah, word of mouth is the most powerful form of marketing, yet it's the one that's the most impossible to track. I mean there's nothing better than a word-of-mouth reference from somebody else that you know, that says, hey, go talk to these guys. But attribution on that is basically impossible. I mean, you can put it in your notes, if you're asking all the right questions like, who referred you? But, if you treat everybody with the utmost respect, and treat everybody as customers as they are, you'll have a good customer experience regardless. That's why if you think about the stage, the first stage of this customer lifecycle, the customer journey that we're talking about, is customer awareness.  It's not “you haven't written us a check yet Mr. Person awareness,” prospect awareness, or visitor awareness. Its customer awareness. Not nonpaying customer awareness.

KJ 

Yeah, it's kind of funny, because people don't use that term or that mindset, they use prospect, which comes from like, you know, the old minor error of prospecting someone.   It does, to me anyway, it has a different connotation than a customer, you treat those two individuals differently.

Stephen N. 

Yeah. And it's not an easy thing. Because you do need to categorize, and people like to put labels next to groups of people. And, you know, anytime I use the word prospect, I typically would say, like prospective customer, even though, I'm kind of making the case against myself, but there needs to be some derivative of that so you can understand the type of customer like a target customer, right, a nonpaying customer, a paying customer, a loyal customer, the customer advocate. There's different there's different variations to it, but they're all customers.

KJ 

Depending on the great degree of commitment of the person?

Stephen N. 

Yeah, right. Just that. And even how you how you view that customer happy customer or pissed off customer?

KJ 

Yeah, they're satisfaction. Well, let's go back to the word-of-mouth thing, because I can't remember it right there. You said, it's the most powerful form of marketing, I think you said. So, if that's the case, let's write an OKR here about customer awareness. And the objective to me would be something along the lines of, utilize the most powerful form of marketing word of mouth? It's like increase word of mouth or something like that. And then what would typically a customer awareness OKR be under that topic, Word of mouth? Like, what would key results look like?

Stephen N. 

Yeah, that's a great question.  I mean, there's a lot of different ways to measure this. The simplest way is just how many people are viewing your web properties, how many people are showing up to your store? Every month, and if you got 1000 people showing up to your site every month, and you want to increase that by 300%. Well, there you go. You got to you got to number to hit 3000 visitors, right. That's just people coming to your corporate website, call it. Then there's social stuff. You know, talk about word of mouth if you get people sharing and liking and commenting. This isn't a revenue generating action, there's a really wide gap in terms of the value of that, when it comes to revenue, but under the lens of just pure customer awareness, its immense value because you have people liking and sharing and commenting. I used to hate all this stuff early on in my career, because I was always tied to a revenue number, like, generate this much pipeline, or generate this many qualified leads, or this much revenue attribution from our marketing channels. So, naturally gravitated towards the things that would be more focused on customers that are on the cusp of buying, right? So that, just for me personally, was always my focus. But there's a ton of value in just getting people to have conversations online and talk about it. And if your executives understand that there's, there's a distinct divide between the two, like somebody's liking and sharing things doesn't mean you're going to hit your quarterly number, it just means that people are engaged, and they're talking about it. So, I think there's a lot of like, for awareness, like putting more stuff out on social trying to increase your following count, just focusing on that, because it that's a leading indicator, and it has, you know, it has benefits down the line. That's a great customer awareness type activity.

KJ 

And does that, well, let's go back to quality and quantity, you know, just because it's the top of the funnel as it naturally we want a higher volume of awareness, or does it matter?

Stephen N. 

Well, it's, it's like I was saying earlier about target customers. So, like, you have to really define that segment. Because if you treat everything as a linear equation, and you just say, well, the more visitors I have, the more X, Y and Z will come out the other end. In theory, yes. But you could also waste a lot of money, you can go off and do content, syndication, marketing activities, and spend $1, a click on sponsored ads that you see at the bottom of articles, and you can burn through 1000s of dollars, and never see a single customer paying customer come out of that. So, there are different forms of quality. A good marketer can distinguish between the two. Right? If you say, well, hey, we just generated 3000 visitors, and they all came from mainland China, probably not the best of quality, right? So honing in on that profile, understanding who it is, those demographics, and then being able to compare apples to apples. That's quality.

KJ 

So, do you have an example of your your career of when you really nailed the awareness? Like something you did that was just like bang on, it helped so much.

Stephen N. 

Yeah, I mean, this is obviously more tactical, but I always like doing targeted campaigns where I can build an audience profile and deliver content to that audience. And it's magical, when you can do that upfront, through like a social channel like LinkedIn, and get on somebody's radar. And maybe they just read an article. And then maybe a month later, a BDR is reaching out to them. And now they're familiar with what we do. And now it's a more personal outreach, and maybe they'll have a conversation with a human, maybe they're not ready. But it's a great way to get on somebody's radar, and then follow up with a personal outreach. That's what I call warming up accounts. And it's a great way to drive awareness for your offerings. If you build your target company profile and your target persona, you can deliver very focused marketing to those individuals.

KJ 

Okay. So, you really are of the opinion that, you know, in that awareness phase, you want to really get focused, define a target customer, define the campaign, define the value prop for that target customer, and then go right after them. And in the meantime, do you also engage with activities that would not be to the target customer for non-targeted customers? Simultaneously?  Or would you put all your focus on the target customers?

Stephen N. 

It depends, right? So, there's different channels, you have your organic channels, that that's we're on, you can type in our company name and see us, you know, through Google for free, anybody can do that, anybody can show up and visit. Strangers show up to your websites all the time. That is a byproduct of just consistent activity. That builds an organic following that you don't necessarily have to pay for. The things that I was talking about before are more those are more paid channels where you spend the money to get the targeting and the segmentation, right? And you proactively go after them. So those are two different things. But you know, it's all channel based. So, each channel produces a different level of volume, quality, and cost. But the key is finding the right blend of your channels, and then optimizing it so you spend your money most effectively. So, if you only have 10 grand a month to spend, probably not a good idea to go to one event and spend all your money on an event that's not relevant to your product. I mean, that's an extreme example. But that would not be a good use of money. But it would be an interesting use of money to spread it out evenly over five different channels and running five different campaigns with the same spend and seeing what you get out of it, and then optimizing accordingly.

KJ 

That's good. Like, then you would, the OKR, then in my mind is starting to appear where the key results would be for different channels, maybe in the customer awareness, like you try and give a try. Give to me an OKR. I'm sure that what you've just said.

Stephen N. 

Yeah, I mean, step one is just establish your profiles. Yeah, just establish an online presence. You can have, you can get a lot of value for no money, just by establishing your presence. Now, this is obviously very early stage. Yeah. You know, but you know, for more established companies, it would be much different. But like, if you're starting from scratch, step one is you go off and you find every profile you possibly can you create those profiles, so that you can have a lot of lines in the water. And you're getting backlinks to your site. So, you increase organic juice on that front. So that's, that's good, just good. Check the box type stuff. But for more established brands that are kind of operating at regular performance, and they're looking to amplify that performance, depending on what your goals are, you know, you can increase awareness through better organic efforts. So just more online organic relationships with other sites so that you can build your own credibility. If it's more of, hey, we want to throw some cash at it, then you can start to create different campaigns based on what your goals are. If your goal is, hey, we just want to increase our social following count. That's all we want to do that we just want to have more people following our brand. Well, let's start some money on it. Let's cool, let's create some cool, creative videos. Let's get online and get people talking about how fun and exciting our brand is. Versus we need awareness to people that are going to buy our stuff in the next like 90 days, okay? Well, we're going to, we're going to reduce the volume, we're going to increase the quality and we're going to get really, really targeted. And so, we're going to go after, you know, we're going to do a campaign to the C suite. And we know it's going to cost a lot of money, but we expect to get, you know, four or five good customers out of it paying customers. It's good. So as a BDR I feel like he just peppering me with a lot of questions, and that's fine. But you are BDR back in the day. But

KJ 

yeah, that was Yeah. Where are you laughing at? They're just the way you're going to hear be the peppermint. A lot of questions.

Stephen N. 

Because I was going to say, it's not all marketing. That was what I was going to say. BDRs are great at driving awareness, because you can load up a contact list of 10,000 strangers and blast the shit out of them. Yeah, I mean, that's what we used to do. We used to just have 10 bd ours with a contact list. Maybe they didn't maybe they weren't in then you just you just blast them. And now you're on their radar. You might piss a lot of people off doing that. But yeah, that's another thing that that we used to do.

KJ 

Not the expert on that. So, I have to ask you the questions.

Stephen N. 

Yeah. It's all good. It's good to get it out. It's very therapeutic. Yeah. I have always had so many opinions on these things that I really got out. There was the pied piper b2b SaaS marketing.

KJ 

Yeah, it's all good. They say bad publicity is good publicity. Rather than saying go anyplace. That's good publicity. Yeah. Is that that the sort of, same with awareness? It's the same concept, like any awareness is good awareness.

Stephen N. 

I mean, to an extent. I mean, if people were talking about you, they're talking about you, but that's more consumer. I don't know in the b2b world, you don't really hear a lot of bad publicity, like, really bad things happening in software in tech. I mean, security breaches or sites going down or attacks. But it's not like it's not to the extreme of, yeah, we just had an oil rig. blow a gasket in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico. And while BP is all over the headlines,

KJ 

Yeah, or Kelly peeing on people or something?

Stephen N. 

Yeah, yeah, just. Yeah, it's not right.  Wait, who?  Oh, you mean R. Kelly.  Yeah, that guy is messed up.

KJ 

There's no debauchery in the b2b SaaS world.

Stephen N. 

Yeah, well, I would say that there is there is value in being controversial. And pushing the status quo, there is value in that.

KJ 

Okay. How might you give me an example of how you might do that in a b2b market SaaS?

Stephen N. 

Well, here's the here's the funny part. It hasn't really happened yet. That hasn't happened yet.

KJ 

Until now, until now.

Stephen N. 

But I get here's the, it's an interesting example. Right? Yeah. All this is, this is going to be more like on the consumer side, but all the corporate sports websites, right. They're all like, you know, the ESPN and Fox Sports and NBC and all those sports sites, right? All corporate, right, just by the book, we have a TV show, we have these resources to produce all these all this content, do all this stuff, right. And then this merry band of idiots with the Barstool Sports crew, you know, starts just building an organic following in the 2000s. Just being super authentic and genuine and talking about stuff guys like to talk about and swearing and typos in all their articles, and just posting pictures of hot chicks just totally being different. Really poor production quality back in the day, right. And people ate it up. They loved it, because it was authentic and real. And now at companies. I mean, I think they're they were bought by a publicly traded company. Pen, I think it was, I mean, I bought him for like a ridiculous sum of money, like a billion dollars or something. I mean, yeah, I used to follow it back in the day, not as much anymore. But it's an example of just the power of being pushing the status quo, being disruptive, being different, authentic. And that hasn't really happened in b2b. Nobody's really done that. You're not going to pull up a b2b article that says, we really hate all corporate bureaucracy. We think all these fucking people are a bunch of bankers, you know, like, nobody's really taken that stance. Why do you why do you think that is? Because everybody's afraid to lose their job. That's why. Yeah, hey, Meet Bob, the new marketer. What do you want to do, Bob? Well, I want to tell everybody go fuck themselves with their SaaS products. Bob, you're fired.

KJ 

And hired Bob Iger? Bob, too. Yeah, I think that's it. It's as simple as people don't want to rock the boat.

Stephen N. 

Yeah, everybody's got, you know, they got people that are beholden to that response. You know, we could go off and we could be those people. We could put, you know, drop F bombs and talk about weird shit and have our have our website be littered with whatever we believe our target audience would be most interested in whatever smile we want to put out there. But it's not really us. And I don't think our investors would take to that too kindly, either.

KJ 

Do you think that's because it's b2b rather be to see like in a consumer oriented market, there's just a lot of different people, a lot of preferences, do you think that?

Stephen N. 

Yeah, I mean, there's not as much on the line. You know, it's when you're a consumer brand, you can engage with content, you can read it, you can talk about it, if you're going to buy something, it's not going to be $50,000 worth of software, it's going to be a $10 shirt, or maybe a sticker or some little doodad. That doesn't matter. It has a part to play in it. You think, yeah. When you're when you're kind of going up the food chain and you're talking about enterprise software and investing in products that are going to be the backbone, a mission critical aspect of your company. You don't want a bunch of jokers, you want somebody that knows what the hell they're doing. So, it's a little bit of a balance, right? You can have some personality, can tell somebody to fuck off. But you know, we're not going to be posting Moody's got to drive awareness to see that anyway, Classic b2c versus b2b. I mean, people say it's different. And it is.

KJ 

are there more similarities than differences?

Stephen N. 

Yeah, I mean, there's more similarities, it’s all people.  Businesses are people, too.

KJ 

That's the common denominator.

Stephen N. 

People like to read and consume things that they like that are relevant to what they they're interested in. And people's jobs are a big part of that. If they give a shit about it, and the difference is on the consumer side, it's very emotional and transactional, versus on the b2b side, it's very high cost and corporate and more professional, but at the end of the day, it's still just people.

KJ 

Yeah, so do you think there's anything from the b2c world apart from maybe a sense of asset authenticity, that could be poached, you know, to b2b,

Stephen N. 

I think authenticity, personality, genuine, real mean, the b2b world is littered with stock photography. We're just as guilty as anybody like b2c world's very, very focused on highly curated high-quality experiences, well-designed experiences, well designed sites products to good customer. Woohoo, we're like what's one of a consumer brands that you follow? Or you or products that you buy? Like, if I was just, you know, drop five grand in your pocket and say go buy something that you've always wanted to buy? What would you go buy?

KJ 

Yeah, like apples obviously come to my

Stephen N. 

Apples? Start some applesauce factory.

KJ 

No, no Apple.

Stephen N. 

You already have all the Apple products, right? You'd go buy another one?

KJ 

Probably yeah, I don't have the big monitor. With the built in webcam. I have like an LG monitor. And I’m sorry LG people. But it's horseshit because I saw them in Costco. And they were beside one another LG for like 300 bucks. The MacBook monitor for like 3000 bucks. But it had a display on either one. And it was so crystal clear on the Mac and like all pixelated on the LG

Stephen N. 

So you already have a monitor now.

KJ 

I picked the LG because I didn't want to spend that money.

Stephen N. 

But you would buy a replacement product that is just of higher quality?  Because of how it makes you feel like why would you do that?

KJ 

Because I spend 10 hours 12 hours a day looking at the screen?

Stephen N. 

How come you didn't buy it before the.

KJ 

Because I bought the MacBook first? Okay. I didn't have enough money to buy both?

Stephen N. 

Okay. So, I mean, it's an interesting thing. So, like Apple, they put a premium on design.

KJ 

Yeah, exactly. Apple, better design.

Stephen N. 

Yeah. And Apple buys up all the high-end advertising spots all over the world. Yeah, they spent on godly amount of money to just be in those spots. And it doesn't do anything for doesn't do anything for driving people to your website. You're never going to drive any sort of attribution. Like we put up a big stupid ad in Times Square, and look at all this new stuff we sold. It's purely for the presence and the how the brand is portrayed.

KJ 

Right. Renowned and like memorable and you know.

Stephen N. 

That's what they do. And they got a trillion dollars cash in the bank so they can do it. Any other examples?  Apple is kind of a safe one.

KJ 

I was trying to think of a better one. But so far off the top of my head. I like well-engineered things like that are really you could have them for 100 years. Like a good watch. I don't know. Yeah, like, Rolex, maybe. What else is there, maybe a Honda 50 motorbike was, things last forever. Yeah. I don't know.

Stephen N. 

I mean, I just bought one yesterday. Oh, your bike?

KJ 

Yeah. Your bicycle, I should say. But that's it's not a well-known brand.

Stephen N. 

It is a Specialized. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, that reminds me I got to register the thing. I mean, they're not a well, a well-known brand. But like if I had to say, well, you know, name three bike manufacturers like they would have been three, one of the three. Now why did you pick us? I picked it because, well, here's an interesting thing, right? Word of mouth years ago, 15 years ago, probably longer than that. Me and my cousin. I had a PlayStation. He had a bike. He wanted my PlayStation. I wanted his bike. So, I traded my PlayStation for his bike and his bike. He's a shit, he got the better end of the deal. But whenever, you know, he was telling me about this bike, he was informing me of other bikes out there that are cool. And he mentioned Specialized and I was like, Ah, he's like, Yeah, you know, they're super light. They're well made. Super Premium design, like, those are cool bikes. Interesting, fast. You know, fast forward. 15 years later, I'm in a used sporting goods store. I see a specialized bike for 200 bucks. It's used, I buy it, the thing was wrecked. I didn't realize it, take it back to the store to get it tuned up or two at a bike shop to get tuned up. They basically scrap it. They say, why don't you get a new bike? Okay. I'll take it spent more money than I should have on a bike. But now I have one. So, it was word of mouth. It started with word of mouth. And that took 15 years to materialize. But I did buy a bike.

KJ 

Yeah, difficult then to measure.

Stephen N. 

But at some point, someone had a good experience with that bike.

KJ 

Right? That's what you would say? Could we say that’s awareness? Maybe specifically word of mouth is useless. If it's not followed up with the quality product?

Stephen N. 

I think it's that but it's also more of the expectation that you never know who's watching who's listening. So always be on your A game.

KJ 

Yeah, that I think we touched on which is good, but I'm thinking more like if we're writing an equation, the mathematical equation for this would it be something like you know, word amounts, multiplied by quality products equals value? Because then if quality product is nil, you know, word of mouth is useless. Basically, without quality, word of mouth is useless.

Stephen N. 

I would say quality, quality product times quality experience. Yeah, High Times. Yeah. quality product times quality, experience times relationships equals good word of mouth times relationships times credibility, right. Credit. That's, that's the other piece, like,

KJ 

I noticed, sadly comes as the result of the quality

Stephen N. 

know the, the credibility of the relationship with the person.

KJ 

Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah.

Stephen N. 

So, like, I know, like my cousin said, like, I know that he is a bit of a connoisseur of various products and materials. And like, he's a gearhead and he know how things work. He can fix things. And he's, you know, yeah. So, like, when he tells me things that he likes, or brands or companies or products that he uses, like, I latch on to that yes, and, and things he tells me to not use, like not to make this all about Seth. But like, we were out shopping for tools one day, and he said, I picked up a tool that was like, cheaper. I was like, this was like, this one looks just literally identical to this other one, but this one's way cheaper. These No no, no, no, no, no, no, that's chrome van veniam. You never buy chrome Vendee. The hell is Chrome dandy. But basically, it's like fake metal that is just cheap enough. It's just going to disintegrate. Yeah, that's so you know, when you're buying a socket wrench. You don't really want something that's look shiny, but it's going to educate you. Well, it's just going to wear down versus some cast iron or steel. much different. So, the credibility part like if you like if you play guitar, right? Yeah. If I said, hey, I don't play guitar. So, but if I wanted to get into it, I'd say KJ, I'm thinking about getting into guitar, like what do you think would be a good first guitar, whatever you can tell me whatever you want it and that would be what I would buy. Yeah,

KJ 

Yeah, it's the trust and credibility in the person. But that but that only that person? Like, sorry, Jesus just forgotten his name. Chris. What's his What's your Seth? Seth? Seth only comes up with those recommendations of products to you based on the quality of the products that he found. Right? Yeah, so I'm just I'm trying to find it's fun to wrap a bow on the whole thing was what people should you know, what's the sequence of events here that they should focus on, and they need to focus on finding a target customer, defining your target customer and also developing quality product that then can be spread via word of mouth?

Stephen N. 

Yeah, I think it's, it's create a quality product, create a quality experience, get in front of customers. Ideally target paying customers. Yes, and deliver an experience that that they want to share with others. And when there's a need to be met that your mental filing cabinet, we'll get right to that particular product that you heard from an individual. I mean, yeah,

KJ 

Great. Again, give me the ultimate intent of the customer awareness. What is the deliverable? You want to get them aware enough so that they become engaged? Right, that that will lead us into our next podcast? You know, kind of give us a little bit of that?

Stephen N. 

Yeah, I think it's, you want them to be aware, and you want to provide them with an interesting experience or memorable experience. But that's more on the engagement side, I would say that that's, that's how you interact with everything. But you got to pique curiosity almost, with something that is of an interest to somebody or solves a problem that's engagement is well, I though, so engagement, which we can talk about tomorrow is more on the actual, like, experience, the tangible experience, whenever you get into these products, or these sites or content, how interesting is it? How, how engaging is it? That's, that's a little bit different. Like getting people through the door, is awareness, once they're in the door, that's engagement.

KJ 

Great. That's a great way of doing it. So, the intent of awareness is to get them in the door,

Stephen N. 

get them in the door, just get them in the door, you got to have good signage

KJ 

available. That's it again, that's the key results you can start to measure is getting people indoors. Yeah.

Stephen N. 

And how you do that is well, you can do that through several channels, you can do that through word of mouth, you can do that through credibility, you can do that by having just really interesting branding. I mean, you walk through the mall, you look at an Apple store, it looks it looks different. It looks interesting. It's all like, clear windowpanes. People, you know, suppose the geniuses walking around helping people. Right? Then you get in the store, you can start playing with the products, you can use it you can, you know, look up, you know, inappropriate websites and display it on the thick monitor and walk out. Back to the nudies. Again, yeah, it's just common thread here. But yeah, it's getting people in the door. And you can pull people into the door by enticing them or people will just naturally want to walk through the door, because they've been there before. Or they know, you know, they know what to expect. Or they told somebody, hey, you know, oh, you're going to go buy a car? Well, you need to go buy a Tesla.

KJ 

but it's, it's because I think predominantly, we had spoken about how you get people to that outcome. We didn't really discuss the outcome as much because you know, the outcome being the behavioral change that you want to drive as someone walking in the door instead of them walking away, right? I'm signing off instead of closing out the window.

Stephen N. 

Yeah, I want the last thing. It's an interesting one, because like, key results, volume, quality health, right? So, say you get somebody in the door, and this goes into engagement, right? You get somebody in the door. And as soon as you walk in the door, somebody runs up to you with a clipboard. Hey, can you give me your credit card? Give me all your information and sign up for this thing. What? I'll be walking out the door now. Goodbye, right. So how that experience is, and this is all very consumerish, but it's no different than when you go to like a b2b website, right? When you get there, you got 900 things popping up at you, you know, bots and down. It's just it's, it's chaos. It's very distracting. That's the difference. So, like you, yeah, you can drive a lot of people to the site. Yeah, they might be your target customers. But if that experience is poor, the health of that interaction will be poor. And, and you can turn a lot of people off to what you're doing.

KJ 

Yeah. That's what we're going to talk about next. Making that experience one to remember.